Curse

jesh · Dec 16, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

The next time I see all those Fevered Dreams mesmers looking for a group, I'll invite one. Thanks for saying what I would have said anyways, warriorsmiley.

I'm guessing even in PvE, you probably won't get more than 3 DW from Fevered Dreams. The AI spreads out as second nature now. A warrior can switch targets and apply DW to a new enemy each time - I do it all the time.
There's enough enemies in PvE that DW on two warriors will only help.
I would say that a Triple Chop/Cyclone warrior will probably put as many deep wounds out, if not more, than a FD mesmer. There's a reason that you don't see mesmer using this skill... every time someone makes a Fevered Dreams build that looks really nice, people always come back after testing it and complain that the AoE is too small. Besides, the amount of adrenaline that you can gain with good positioning is attrocious - for an axe or a sword.

The bottom line is: I can count the times I've had a caster take PP/Accumulate Pain in my party. Know why? I ask every single mesmer what skills they use, after I thank them for joining my party. I haven't had 1 mesmer take DW yet. No other caster class can cause DW. Most of the time, I don't find assassins in my party. I have yet to party with another dervish. The end result is that it's pretty much the warrior's job to DW, because otherwise your killing will suck.

Side note: I would really like someone to test the abilities of DW in PvE... It seems to help on bosses a noticable amount, even though they have thousands of hit points. *shrug*

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I played an Eviscerate build in PvE all the way up until midway through Factions.
Since then, I've mostly been using a Dragon Slash build, and most of the time, particularly recently, without Sever Artery and Gash.

And my damage output has gradually got better.

I also noticed that deep wound wasn't as effective against bosses AGES ago, hence my scepticism about the condition in general. I didn't know that it maxed out at 100, but any idiot can tell it's not taking off 20% of a boss' bar when it's applied.

As for having my killing suck without deep wound, I'll just nod my head and smile.
Thanks to heroes and build synergy, most pre-Desolation mobs are dead before "For Great Justice!" runs out with my current set up.
Less than 20 seconds to kill a whole mob doesn't seem too shabby to me.

Carth` · Dec 16, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

You are thinking of deep wound with only PvE in mind. In PvE you are right in saying that the trend is that AoE is better than single target damage. But an AoE deep wound isn't all that amazing. The power of deep wound is in the spike of losing 20% of your health in the next hit. If some mesmer comes along in PvP and puts a deep wound on everyone he completely ruins a warrior's spike.

Do whatever you want in PvE, bring Cyclone Axe and Triple Chop, it doesn't really matter what you do so long as you hit stuff. Things die quickly anyway. Don't make huge generalizations about how deep wound sucks. All the conditions are good at different things, and deep wound is a powerful condition, but maybe not as useful in PvE for the same reason that assassins aren't. Killing a single target isn't a challenge, by the time the assassin finishes his attack chain on one target, a caster has killed everything with AoE damage.

Edit: I don't think mesmers causing deep wounds are as common as you claim either. The only time I've seen it is as a condition to trigger Virulence in Frag spike. It would require a lot of coordination and wasted energy to Phantom Pain and shatter it, or put 2 hexes on and use Accumulated Pain right before an adrenaline spike from a warrior. The warrior can consistently apply the deep wound using no energy every few seconds right before a spike.

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

I didn't claim that mesmers causing deep wounds were common, I just said they were damn good for the job.
I didn't outright denounce deep wound as being awful, I just tried to show some perspective. People here treat it like it's the second coming or something, when it's really just another condition. And ALL conditions are easily removed.
And let's face it, I'm guessing the majority of people praising deep wound to the heavens didn't have the faintest idea that it maxes out at 100HP.
You can tell that from their posts.

Carth` · Dec 17, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I dunno. Mesmer methods of causing a deep wound:

Phantom Pain + Shatter/Drain Delusions, 15 energy spent, 15 second recharge

2 hexes + Accumulated Pain, minimum cost 20 energy, 20+ second recharge

A warrior just needs to hit something 5 or more times. He has many attack skills that cause a deep wound, and during a battle can reapply deep wounds very easily and often.

I love mesmers, but for causing a deep wound, I'd say warrior or dervish is "damn good" for the job.

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

So you're comparing the cost of the mesmer skills to the speed of the warrior skills?
How about being fair and comparing the speeds of both?
With a high enough level in fast casting, the mes can apply a deep wound in just under 2 seconds. If you want to worry about energy costs, take [wiki]drain delusions[/wiki] as opposed to shatter.
Five swings, even whilst under the effects of an IAS, take a bit longer than 2 seconds...

If you want to add Fevered Dreams into the mix, you're adding maybe half a second more to the combo for an area effect deep wound. That's a very quick, area effect, ~100 damage. Sounds pretty good to me. Hell, I may even start playing such a build. I can already think of some nasty stuff to combo it with.
Oh, and contrary to popular belief, deep wound takes effect immediately, not on the next hit. Go test it on the Isle of the Nameless. While you're there, take enough health boosts to tip you over 500 so you can see that it maxes out at 100.

As for the range of Fevered Dreams being poor, I think someone's mistaking it for Epidemic.
Epidemic is "Nearby".
Fevered Dreams is "In the Area".
Again, test it on the Isle.

As for the 15 second recharge, the deep wound is applied for 18. That's a non-issue, unless we take into account condition removal, but you guys have seemed pretty intent on ignoring that up until now.

Carth` · Dec 17, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I don't really see the advantage of how fast you can cause a deep wound, if you have a longer wait to cause it again. Condition removal is common, the warrior might take a bit longer to cause the initial deep wound, but then he can keep causing it consistently. I wasn't comparing energy cost to speed, I was comparing usability, or how easy it is to cause the deep wound. Yes a mesmer could potentially run in and cause a deep wound immediately on someone at full health... what's so good about that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Oh, and contrary to popular belief, deep wound takes effect immediately, not on the next hit. Go test it on the Isle of the Nameless. While you're there, take enough health boosts to tip you over 500 so you can see that it maxes out at 100.

Unless it has been changed in the past few days, deep wound takes effect the next time someone takes damage. Not the next hit, the damage can come from any source, a spell, a hex etc. Deep wound appears as a condition immediately, but the 20% loss of life takes effect the next time you take damage. If the 20% loss of life from deep wound would cause you to die, you don't die, you have 1 health, until you take damage.

According to GuildWiki if you have health degeneration the deep wound does take effect immediately, so if you're causing it with Phantom Pain, you're probably right.

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

It's easy to test Carth, I've done it myself.
Go stand next to the deep wound guy on the Isle of the Nameless.
As soon as the deep wound takes effect, your maximum health will decrease by 20%, or 100 if you have over 500 health.

Carth` · Dec 17, 2006, 10:56 AM // 10:56

The deep wound lowers max health immedietly, but the 20% reduction in current health takes place on the next hit.

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Nowhere does it say that a deep wound inflicts an extra 20% reduction in health on the next hit.
Here's a diagram:

Now if what you are saying were true, (v) would be how much health the target would lose.
Have you EVER seen that much health disappear from a target's bar in one hit after you've applied a deep wound?
No.
It's all in perception.
What people are REALLY seeing is (iv), which being 400 on the same sized bar as 500 does look more, but is actually the same amount of damage as would be done to a target with 500 health.

Edit: in-game proof for those who still doubt:

Looks like the difference between (iii) and (iv) to me...
And that second 97 was applied immediately after the deep wound, with no other hits in between.

Carth` · Dec 17, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Have you EVER seen that much health disappear from a target's bar in one hit after you've applied a deep wound?

Yes, all the time.

Executioner's Strike can typically do 80-100 or more damage, which is 20% of a 500 health target. But, I can use Eviscerate and get a target to 40% health, and my next Exec's Strike will kill the target. He lost the damage from the attack, and another 20% from the deep wound. I love spikes, you hear the invalid target noise on the monk's slow Zealous Benediction. He thought he had time because the target was at 40% health, but it died from a nice axe spike.

A way of easily seeing it is to make an assassin, and bring the dual attack Twisting Fangs. It inflicts a deep wound, but dual attacks hit twice. Both attacks do the same amount of +damage (something like +17 damage), and both that hit apply a deep wound. You can visibly see the first hit do +17 damage, and the second one do +17 damage and also lose 20% health on top, because the first hit has inflicted a deep wound.

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Carth, you see that 97 damage with DW in that picture?
I hit one of the armour 60 dummies on the isle with a deep wound, then let it recuperate to full health. I then hit it with Executioner's whilst the deep wound was still active.
So the Executioner's was the first hit after the deep wound was applied, and that was the result.
Like I say, what people believe to be true of deep wound is actually very far from the proven truth.

Carth` · Dec 17, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I made a picture. I hit the 100AL target for a while. I took a screenshot, then I hit it with Dismember, the attack dealt 24 damage. Then I took another picture. Then I hit it with no attack skill, just a normal swing. It did 18 damage. You can see the result in the picture, this was with hardly any damage and took a huge chunk of health out.

One thing I did notice, if I build my adrenaline on a different target, and then use Dismember and a normal swing on a full health target, the effect is much less. The closer the target was to death, the more the loss of health due to deep wound was closer to 20%. On a healthy target you barely noticed the loss of health from deep wound, but on a target with 20% health left, that just had a deep wound applied, the next hit was instant kill even though it only did 10 damage.

I never realised this about how deep wound works. You learn a lot just from hitting those practice targets, it works strangely. Also if the deep wound ended, and then I hit the target, there was an increase on the health bar on the next hit. Looked like the target got healed after I did damage to it.

Edit: ok to clarify, it isn't always a loss of 20% health. On a healthy target it will be more like 5%. But when it counts, on a target close to death, you can cause 20% loss of health on the next hit.

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

You're right there, the effects do get more dramatic the closer to 0 health the enemy is, with a significant change at around the 33% mark.
Gah, I hate inconsistency!

But, for the sake of a build, where you want to be doing the damage as quickly as possible as early as possible, is it worth taking up 2 skill slots in a sword build in order to unleash a spike when the enemy is at 33%, or is it better to take 2 high damage skills in those slots instead that could be dishing out larger wedges of damage earlier?

Either way, it seems the waters are cloudier than expected on whichever side of the argument you side.

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

So I ran a sword spiker too, and whilst you have to wait for adrenaline to build up, when you unleash your skillbar, it's VERY quick to kill.
My issue there however is how long you have to wait for everything to be charged.
I guess that's where the spike build shows it's PvP teeth; it needs to out-damage a monk's protection and heals in as short a time as possible. It's more based on choosing your time.
My apologies, deep wound does have it's place.

For PvE, I still prefer ditching the deep wound in order to keep up a sustained assault of high damage attacks. Whilst you lose a tiny amount of speed when killing individual targets, such a build allows you to move from one target to the next whilst keeping your damage output high, resulting in more kills in a shorter period of time. Like I say, ideal for PvE where monsters don't really kite.

So I think I can safely say that deep wound is fantastic for PvP, but I'd rather leave it at home when playing PvE.

With that in mind:
PvP
[card]Sprint[/card][card]frenzy[/card][card]sever artery[/card][card]standing slash[/card][card]dragon slash[/card][card]gash[/card][card]final thrust[/card][card]resurrection signet[/card]

PvE
[card]"For Great Justice!"[/card][card]Enraging Charge[/card][card]flail[/card][card]standing slash[/card][card]silverwing slash[/card][card]sun and moon slash[/card][card]dragon slash[/card][card]resurrection signet[/card]

Note: the PvE res should really be "Sunspear Rebirth Signet", but Wiki doesn't know what it is

Utaku · Dec 17, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

IMHO the next damage after a deep wound only lets the 20% health reduction to be shown on the health bar, even if it is applied immediately.

But, don't forget that a deep wound alone cannot put something under 1hp.

That's why the combo phantom pain plus shatter dellusions is great, as the damage from shatter is applied after the deepwound from phantom pain, resulting on a spike taking down a lvl 20 target from 33% health to 0 with a descent level in domination.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 17, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

dragon slash+final thrust makes me go

Dazzen · Dec 17, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

I never realised this about how deep wound works. You learn a lot just from hitting those practice targets, it works strangely.

Neither me it seems

I knew there was a cap on the damage, but not about the 'next-hit-effect'.

Ty for pointing it !

@Nexus : In your pvp DS build, when you spike with final thrust, doesn't it takes a bit of time to recharge all adren skills ? (just a PvP noob's question here

)

Nexus Icon · Dec 17, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Yeah, it does, although Final Thrust is really only there as a nod to those who think a spike needs it.
To be honest, I'd be happy with Galrath/Silverwing, Dragon or Standing as the attack after the deep wound.
But to remain a spike, whatever you use, it does have to hit hard.
No point hitting Sever Artery after the deep wound, put it that way :E

Pop it out and stick a utility in; Healing Signet, whatever floats your boat.

jesh · Dec 17, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Dazzen, yes it does. That's why I don't use DS in the first place..
The only use I can see for DS here is to help apply pressure with Standing Slash until the target gets low enough to spike down. DS and Final Thrust both cost the same adrenaline amount, so there isn't too much else that you can do, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Epidemic is adjacent targets, and Fevered Dreams is in the area. Honestly I didn't know that FD was that large. I have no clue how large "in the area" is. I've never used FD, so I can't complain about it. I've seen other people complain about it though, when I was reading a thread on using a Me/E with FD. They were using it to apply burning and deep wound with Mark of Rodgort and Phantom Pain. Because of the complaints, I never bothered to cap it.

:EDIT: I think you could accomplish almost the same thing as DS in that build with "To The Limit!", and save your elite slot.
DS and Standing/Silverwing/Galrath will deal more damage than a Final Thrust, because of the two base damages, but it obviously takes longer, and it would make it easier for a monk to save the target from the spike.